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| How strong are the humans? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 29 2013, 03:46 PM (2,370 Views) | |
| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Dec 29 2013, 03:46 PM Post #1 |
魔王子
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I'm not entirely sure where I should place them. Should I say f*** it and put them in the millions or should they remain weaker than Freeza's first form? |
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| SSJ | Dec 29 2013, 03:57 PM Post #2 |
 
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Probably millions. I've been putting hem around Base Vegeta @ Freeza or Base Goku. Somewhere in that range seems good to me, because we can't deny that they continued to train. Krillin could have become stronger than First Form Freeza by the time his potential unlock had finished.
Edited by SSJ, Dec 29 2013, 03:59 PM.
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| + Kaboom | Dec 29 2013, 04:46 PM Post #3 |
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Far as I'm concerned, "training" isn't going to let them match the insane Saiyan-exclusive ways to gain power that Goku and Vegeta abused to reach the low millions on Namek, nor can they physically withstand extreme training methods like multi-hundred-times' Earth's gravity. Kuririn and Tenshinhan are the only ones I see ever surpassing 100,000. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Dec 29 2013, 04:50 PM Post #4 |
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In the millions but way below 50% frieza(60,000,000) |
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| bloodstained euphy | Dec 29 2013, 04:53 PM Post #5 |
 
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My suggestions for the notable humans of DBZ Hercule = <10 Videl = <10 but >Hercule Chi-Chi = 130 Roshi = 139 Bulma = Somewhere within ~3-4 would be good Launch = Somewhere between ~3 and ~4.2 for the bluenette, and ~5-6.5 for the blonde, is acceptable Spopovich and Yamu = Around ~175-350 is acceptable Yamcha = ~500,000-1.5 million Krillin = ~1.5-2 million Tenshinhan = ~1.5-10 million Yajirobe = Somewhere within ~25-50 would be good 17 and 18 = 300+ million is a good area to place them Uub = Strongly recommended at more than 300+ million, and full potential is = to Kid Buu |
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| * Yu Narukami | Dec 29 2013, 04:54 PM Post #6 |
Izanagi!
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Well, I normally run with them being in the millions at minumum. Son Goku (@Raditz) = 416 Son Goku (@Nappa) = 8,500 That's around a 20.4x increase in 1 year. If we're to assume that Gero took that into consideration. Son Goku (1 year after Saiyan Battle) = 8,500 Son Goku (2 years after Saiyan Battle) = 173,400 Son Goku (3 years after Saiyan Battle) = 3,527,360 Son Goku (4 years after Saiyan Battle) = 72,162,144 Gero was genuinely surprised at the Senzu bean and the fact that it worked, so he'd have to factor in Goku's recovery time, meaning that he expected Goku to stay at the same level of power for a while. Also, he was confident even when the Z-Senshi implied that they were much stronger than he predicted, showing that he didn't really leave any room for error. Yamcha was mistaken for Goku, so that means that he should approximately be at the same power that Gero was expecting Goku to be at, barring the Kaioken and Oozaru. 'Course, these numbers are pure speculation. |
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| + Clearin | Dec 29 2013, 05:06 PM Post #7 |
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There's very little concrete information about the humans after the Saiyan saga. Krillin: The last known PL of Krillin was "over 10,000" fighting Guldo, but his power was continously rising. When he fought Ginyu, in Goku's body, he and Gohan were both holding their own agaisnt him when his PL was 23,000 so Krillin's had likely raised to around that point too by then. After that things get a lot harder to figure out. At the start of the Freeza fight Vegeta says that they might have a chance at winning: Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.6 Context: after grappling with Vegeta for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!” And keep in mind Vegeta knew Freeza could transform at least once. Of course we don't know how strong Vegeta thought Freeza could get, so we can't make any direct comparisons. Either way it's obvious Vegeta is still the strongest of the heroes right now, and he's able to grapple somewhat on par with Freeza, but when it's done Freeza is pretty calm while Vegeta is out of breath and sweating. So Krillin is weaker than Vegeta, who is slightly weaker than Freeza, but still has enough power to help win agaisnt Vegeta's hypothetical 2nd form Freeza. Of course his power is still growing even by the start of this fight (stated by Vegeta), and we're never told how long it keeps growing, at what rate, or what PL it stops at. So by the time he dies he really could be just about anywhere as long as he's weaker than 50% Freeza and Kaioken x10 Goku... So at this point we're already using our own headcanons for his PL with nothing to really back it up. Once the Android saga rolls around the only set-in-stone facts we get are that he's weaker than Dr Gero and the other Androids, but stronger than Yamcha (who claimed to be the most useless there)...which isn't very helpful. We do get some implications though. When they're flying to the city where the Androids are supposed to arrive Goku asks Krillin why he looks so down, Krillin responding with "We're going to fight two killer Androids to the death, and I'm not even a Super Saiyan" [Paraphrasing]. From this we get that Krillin doesn't feel confident he can take down opponents that are known to be stronger than SSj Trunks (and thus Mecha Freeza)...Not very helpful. What might be helpful is Krillin's phrase about "not being a Super Saiyan". Does this mean if he was a SSj he feels he could do something against the Androids? Because this would put him above base Trunks from 3 years ago, and thus above base Goku on Namek which is well into the millions, this would place him above the first three forms of Freeza at least. Sometime between the Cell and Buu saga he stopped "fighting" (which may also mean training), but we're never really told when. It could have been right after the Cell games, when his daughter when born (I thin she was 3 or 4 in the Buu saga), or even just months before the Buu saga started. This is the line: Chapter: 426 (DBZ 232), P8.3 Gohan: “This is Kuririn. He no longer fights, so he stopped shaving his head.” No mention of time anywhere unfortunately. He does train for the Budokai, which is a month of training, so there's that... But we don't have any number to start with, nor do we get any indication of how many gains he got... He's weaker than the base kids, since he shows relief at them not being allowed in the adult division, and the no SSj rule was in effect. Trunks: “That’s alright! Let me fight with the adults” Tournament guy: “Eh!? No, no. Those are the rules.” Trunks: “Cheh!” Kuririn: “Phew!” Not that it wasn't obvious already.... We do get one interesting quote here from Yamcha: Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P3.2-3 Context: as Kuririn goes up against Punter Marron: “That person dad’s fighting is big and looks strong…I wonder if he’ll be alright?...” Yamcha: “It’s fine, fine! Someone like that doesn’t matter at all! Your father is the strongest in the world! Among Earthlings…” This places him above Tien. Toriyama later confirms in an interview, and on the BOG character bios that Krillin is the strongest Earthling. We don't know Tien's power either, so it's a bit useless information, but for that particular debate (Krillin vs Tien) it's something. The next bit is more implications rather than statements. When flying to Babidi's ship Kaioshin says he'll need "their" help (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin are there, but he addresses it to Goku so Krillin may not have even been included). Then Kaioshin goes on to say how he's stronger than Freeza. So at this point Krillin just heard that Kaioshin needs help, and Kaioshin is stronger than Freeza... So whatever they're going to be fighting is stronger than Freeza, and Krillin sticks around. You could chalk this up to bravery, loyalty or just Krillin not planning to fight, but later when Dabura comes out Goku tells Krillin it's too dangerous and he should go back, and a terrified Krillin agrees. Neither of these issues, Goku being worried about Krillin, or Krillin being scared, show up when they're told they'll be fighting people stronger than Freeza. Also note that when PuiPui is the first to come out of Babidi's ship, no one comments on his power, and Krillin shows no fear until Dabura coms out later. There's no indication that PuiPui can suppress his power either, a trait said to be rare by the Ginyu Force. And look at this quote: Context: after seeing Babidi and Dabra Goku: “Kuririn, you’d better go back. Things seem a lot more dangerous than we thought” Kuririn: “Wo-would you let me do that?...haha…It-it doesn’t look like things are at a level where I’d be very useful…” So up until that point (finding out they'll be fighting Freeza+ level opponents and seeing PuiPui) he thought he'd be useful? People have taken this to mean Krillin is stronger than Freeza, but it's up to you since it's all implications rather than facts. I think that's the last thing we ever get about Krillin's power. So as you can see things were pretty much guesswork ever since the Freeza. The last official thing we ever find out is that he's weaker than the base kids. Yamcha: Yamcha trains on King Kai's planet, but we never get any clue on how strong he got by doing this... He was wished back before Tien and Chaozu though, he spent a little over 4 months there. But since we don't know the gains he got, the time he spent there doesn't tell us much. A rather interesting thing to note is that Yamcha was planning to fight the Androids until they almost killed him: Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P3.2 Yamcha: “Fra-frankly I don’t want to go…Sorry…Those guys…nearly killed me and I was helpless to resist…” (After this he says he'll go but only to watch) So Yamcha was planning on fighting Androids that were stronger than Mecha Freeza? My own personal theory is that he was never planning on fighting 1v1 but may have planned on getting in on the action to distract the androids, or a sneak attack or something if he needed to. But after being almost killed he was so shaken up that he didn't want to get himself in a position where it might happen again which is understandable... You can take it however you want though. Dr Gero and #19 confuse Yamcha for Goku: Chapter 338 (DBZ 144), P9.6-7, P10.1 Context: the androids mistake Yamcha for Goku No.20: “A human with an unusually high energy rating is heading this way…Is the search system malfunctioning?” No.19: “It’s not a malfunction, No.20. I’m noting the same energy.” No.20: “It greatly surpasses human data…” No.19: “We’ve found him already…Son Goku.” This isn't the most helpful thing ever since we don't know how strong they were expecting Goku to be. We know they weren't expecting Goku to make any huge gains again: No.20: “There was no need. By the battle with Vegeta and co., we had already completely grasped your power and techniques. We calculated that no matter how much you improved afterwards, considering your age, you wouldn’t have any increases as enormous as you had before…” So we don't know how strong they were expecting Goku to be, and we can't even use the gains from before to try and guess how strong they thought he'd be. At the very least we know they can't have been expecting him to be as strong as he would have been if he did keep making the same gains. I assume the massive gain they're referring to is the one Goku made while dead for a year (which was roughly a 19x gain) and since there was a 4 or so year gap between the Saiyan and Android saga that would have put Goku's PL at 1,042,568,000 if he kept increasing his PL by 19 each year... So yeah, not very useful again. There is this though: Chapter 338 (DBZ 144), P11.4 No.19: “No, it is not Son Goku…He doesn’t match the data. There’s a 96% chance this is the human known as Yamcha…” No.20: “At any rate, we’ll be able to obtain a large amount of energy.” I'm not sure how strong you have #19 and #20 but they say they'd get a large amount of energy from Yamcha... If they were on Mecha Freeza's level and Yamcha was weaker than first form Freeza then that would barley increase their power at all, and couldn't be considered large. Soon after he admits to being the most useless of everyone there (Vegeta, Piccolo, Krillin, Gohan and himself) Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P4.3 Context: offering to take Goku back home Yamcha: “Pitiful as it may be, it looks like I’m the least useful one here…” I think this is the last thing we ever get for Yamcha... Except in the Buu saga where he admits Krillin is stronger than him. So the last thing we know about Yamcha is that he's weaker than Buu saga Krillin, but Krillin's PL is a completely mystery.... I think he stopped training after the Cell Games though (Can't remember if there's a real source for this). Tien: Tien spends longer on King Kai's planet than Yamcha (I think about 8 and a half months) but as usual we're never told exactly how strong he gets from this... In the Android saga we get this line: Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…” He never said this about base Goku, so he and base Goku are on the same dimension? I don't know... It's more implication rather than statements. He says this about Trunks: Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4 Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…” He considers beating Mecha Freeza a big feat, which would imply he's weaker. This would by default apply to Yamcha, too. Or it could mean "Trunks beat Freeza, so he had a big head start on us already before we all trained for 3 years." Other than really obvious quotes (such as saying he's weaker than imperfect Cell, or Piccolo saying he's weaker than Dr Gero, and later Android 17) there isn't actually much about Tien's power in the Android saga. He didn't think 2 years in the RoSaT would put him on a level helpful agaisnt Cell, if that's any use to you... He's known to train between the Cell and Buu saga. But there is one interesting thing to note, Toriyama was once asked about the epilogue, and he says Tien farms as well as trains. But this was only in response to the epilogue, and thus may not apply to this 7 year gap. It's up to you... We find out he's weaker than Krillin via Yamcha's statements (and later Toriyama's interview and BoG character bios). There's this: Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P7.1 Context: Boo talks to Goku after knocking out Tenshinhan Boo: “…That guy just now was apparently quite a master, but he was reduced to that state in just 1 one kick...” A lot of people think Buutenks calling Tien a "master" is supposed to be an indication of his power, but I have no idea what they're trying to say. Since Buutenks is talking to Goku here, is it supposed to intimidate him, which would suggest Tien is on the same level as SSj3 Goku?... I heavily doubt that. I personally think this quote means nothing at the moment, but since a lot of people use it I figured I'd at least let you take a look at it. Maybe I'm just getting lazy at this point but I can't recall anything else that even hints at Tien's power other than Tien saying he doesn't stand a chance against Buutenks, which was obvious without a quote... So like Yamcha, the last thing we ever really get about his PL is that he's weaker than Krillin. Krillin, Tien and Yamcha: All 3 of them show up to fight the Androids when Piccolo and Goku had said (Or maybe it was just Piccolo twice? Either way it was definitely said twice) only to show up if they thing they were confident, otherwise they'd just be getting in the way. All 3 of them show up, and all 3 of them know the Androids are > SSj Trunks who is > Mecha Freeza... Tien leaves Chaozu behind so we at least know for sure Chaozu can't be anywhere near this level. Once again, this is something you can choose to take however you want. Edited by Clearin, Dec 29 2013, 05:13 PM.
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| SSJ | Dec 29 2013, 05:28 PM Post #8 |
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The thing is, Gero still considered them valuable enough that he thought they could help him to surpass SSJ Vegeta. If they were in the hundreds of thousands, what use would they be? |
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| * Mitas | Dec 29 2013, 05:30 PM Post #9 |
It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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I don't have much to say on the subject, but I just wanted to give Clearin props for such a detailed post. It's a long one, but he definitely covers pretty much everything, so everyone should read it before posting here. |
 "Then you've got the chance to do better next time." "Next time?" "Course. Doing better next time. That's what life is." | |
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| + Pyrus | Dec 29 2013, 07:42 PM Post #10 |
 
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Clearin showed why we really don't have any idea what Gero predicted for Goku.
I'd like to comment on the guys being able to sense any power from the Majin folk. Spopovich and Yamu had no sensible ki, and when talking about Dabura on the ship, Vegeta speaks of his "movements," not his ki. Chapter: 441 (DBZ 247), P4.4 Context: as Videl fights Spopovitch Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…” Note: ‘life’, in this case is seiki, written with the kanji for ‘life’ and ‘ki’. Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4 Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…” Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...” Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…”
Earlier he was jesting about them not appearing at the time Trunks said they would, implying he was rather relieved. He also wondered if they were real the entire time until he finally encountered them.
Overall nice post, but you forgot to mention Gero's comment about Base Vegeta in comparison to the rest of them (barring Goku). Here's the Japanese anime version of it as well. To refer back to the original post, my thoughts on the strength of the humans are captured in a thread I made on the very same issue in the past. Here is the thread: http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8788813&t=8424212 As well, here are some posts to contemplate: http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8631514&t=8397371 http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8642047&t=8399526 http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8627941&t=8397371 http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8627903&t=8397371 |
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| + Clearin | Dec 29 2013, 07:53 PM Post #11 |
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I'd be willing to accept this, but how can they tell he's as strong as Cell just by killing Kibito?
Ah, that's a good point. Thanks.
I honestly forgot about that quote. It's not on Herms strength checker, is it? Basing on the fact you used Viz and the anime. It's actually a bit confusing to me. Is it implying base Vegeta is stronger than everyone there? Even suppressed Piccolo? And is it supposed to be saying base Vegeta is a match for #19, or even Dr Gero himself? Edit: It seems that Dr Gero is grouping them all together and calling them all flies, including Vegeta. I'm not 100% sure he's saying Vegeta is in a different league to them or anything. Just a guess though. Edited by Clearin, Dec 29 2013, 07:58 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Dec 29 2013, 08:19 PM Post #12 |
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They observed his movements and could compare them to Cell's. I don't really know how else to explain that. Goku does something similar against Yakon where has to rely on movement, likely due to not being able to sense any ki from the beast. Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P11.1 Context: after Goku manages to kick Yakon in the dark Goku: “You’ve underestimated us too much. Even in pitch darkness, I can easily tell your movements. Through things like the subtle flow of the air…”
Even if he wasn't saying Vegeta was in a totally different league than them (though based on how Vegeta compared to them during the Saiyan fight, I don't know how he wouldn't come to that conclusion), by the fact that he considered the fight to be more interesting simply because Vegeta joined leads me to believe Base Vegeta was at least superior to them by some noticeable margin, more if you go by the anime's translation. By the way, here are Yamcha's statements expressing disbelief about the androids. Viz Vol.12, pg.178 Yamcha: "I told you it was some kind of trick. He said around 10. It's only 10:17. Which I would group under 'around'. But I can't feel a single strong chi. If they're that powerful, we should be able to feel them no matter where on Earth they are!" Viz Vol.13, pg. Yamcha: "Do they really exist?!" Edited by Pyrus, Dec 29 2013, 08:36 PM.
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| petewentz | Dec 31 2013, 12:20 AM Post #13 |
suiteheart
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Basically what Kaboom said. Sure they continued to train but there is no reason to expect any massive gains out of any of them again... |
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| SSJ | Dec 31 2013, 12:22 AM Post #14 |
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I just don't see why Gero would see them as being valuable if they were so weak. |
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| No. 20 | Dec 31 2013, 12:29 AM Post #15 |
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Perhaps the absorption models do not use stolen energy as adding to their power but rather allowing them to utilize more of their own potential. Like a phone battery needing charging after strenuous use (playing games or watching videos), and then able to be used to it's fullest after the charge. If the humans possess enough raw energy to be used as fuel for more powerful attacks then they would be useful for 19 and 20. |
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